So it’s sort of a thing. Socrates is a real guy but Plato also used the character or voice of Socrates to advance some of his own ideas using Socrates’ name for credibility - probably.
The thing is there's a chance he wasn't. Or he was several people at the same time. Same with Plato. There are some things in the historical record that simply aren't true but historians have to act like it is just because to doubt it would throw the whole historical record into chaos. Once you pull one thread the whole thing unravels.
There's a change Hercules was a real person and there's a chance Zeno of Citium wasn't. Hercules' 12 trials were possibly based on true stories of a warrior that got embellished later. And they say Zeno died from holding his own breath, but the thing is... you can't die from holding your own breath. It's physically impossible.
That's very interesting! I can't imagine anyone admitting that Socrates wasn't a real person now - that would just tumble Western Civilization into chaos since his thought is foundational! I understand that we can't really know from this vantage point and does it really matter anyway? I just think it is interesting. Thanks for the information!
I love him, but he reminds me of a kid who keeps asking "Why?" But yes, I love kids too for that reason. They make you think because sometimes we don't want to think. But we have to anyway. Otherwise, we're just running on emotions and reactions. Anyhoo, Socrates is cool!
"It didn’t take long for Athens to tire of Socrates strolling around the marketplace, questioning everybody’s life choices. Eventually, they put him on trial for corrupting the youth, which is a pretty great charge! “Corrupting the youth.” I mean, come on! Socrates wasn’t out here with a gang of rebellious teenagers, spray-painting temples."
This is factually incorrect.
The charge of corruption of the youth had, largely, to do with the fact that Socrates students overthrew the democratic government and purged 5% of the population in the reign of the Thirty Tyrants. As a comparison point Stalin is placed at purging 2%-5%. Socrates' personal involvement was unclear but it is known that he simultaneously was not kicked out of the city nor left out of fear but he also did not take any active administrative role. However the Tyrants were comfortable enough with his presence and authority that they asked him to personally arrest and drag up one of the leading nobles, Leon of Salamis, to his execution and property confiscation. Socrates chose not to do it but also did not protest, according to Plato.
There are two other instances where Socrate's students and friends were involved in trying to overthrow governments. This article sums up the situation well with the limited information we have.
In regards to "spray-painting temples", he actually was attached to temple vandalizers. It's funny how on the nose the account is. Here is an excerpt about Socrate's friend vandalizing religious pillars.
"The prime movers in both of the anti-democratic movements were former pupils of Socrates, Alcibiades and Critias. Athenians undoubtedly considered the teachings of Socrates--especially his expressions of disdain for the established constitution--partially responsible for the resulting death and suffering. Alcibiades, perhaps Socrates' favorite Athenian politician, masterminded the first overthrow. (Alcibiades had other strikes against him: four years earlier, Alcibiades had fled to Sparta to avoid facing trial for mutilating religious pillars--statues of Hermes--and, while in Sparta, had proposed to that state's leaders that he help them defeat Athens.)"
The story of Socrate's trial cannot be understood without the context of the Thirty Tyrants. That was really the central issue of the whole thing:
"If I. F. Stone is right, the most damaging accusation against Socrates concerned his association with Critias, the cruel leader of the Thirty Tyrants. Socrates, in Plato's account, points to his refusal to comply with the Tyrants' order that he bring in Leon of Salamis for summary execution. He argues this act of disobedience--which might have led to his own execution, had not the Tyrants fallen from power--demonstrates his service as a good citizen of Athens. Stone notes, however, that a good citizen might have done more than simply go home to bed--he might have warned Leon of Salamis. In Stone's critical view, the central fact remained that in the city's darkest hour, Socrates "never shed a tear for Athens.""
This is something that should not be easy to miss in any summary of Socrate's trial.
Wow. You really schooled me in 4th century Greek stuff. You’re one knowledgeable person. I would have never confused this essay with serious scholarship. But you, Dave, on a Friday night in September, did it. Congratulations. Well done. I’m firmly put in place. Now go and enjoy your weekend. And please, lighten up.
If truth and justice conflict, which should prevail? This is a question which divides those I know, across the political and intellectual spectrum, right down the middle.
This made me smile. I like your humour (English spelling... or is it from French influence?) Anyway, the toddler bit really got to me... of course... the never-ending "why?" Answer the toddler and their response will be "why?" forever! Poor old Soc... he had a difficult end, made to drink Hemlock. I decided to use a plant identifier app on my herb garden, (loads of different mints and chamomile, the usual tansy, lady's mantle, etc:) and was horrified to find there was one tiny plant in there that my phone named as Hemlock! Jiminy Cricket! Everyone should have a plant identifier.
I was wondering if the sarcasm was sincere or not. Nice read.
Socrates is by far my favourite philosopher, because his views were not only simple, they were effective. I tended to use the Socratic Method far before I ever learned what it was, and when I did I was like "Holy shit! Why didn't anyone tell me about this?"
The thing that gets me the most is how useful it is. It's like a key that opens almost any lock, and almost *no one* uses it. Very few can even tell when you're doing it. Even people claiming to be philosophers never see it coming. It's literally why I have ignorant in my screen name and no one seems capable of figuring that out.
Yes! One does not want to make the Socratic mistake. We have a plant identifier as well. It’s very handy for gardening. I’m glad you enjoyed the Socrates.
Somebody once claimed that Socrates wasn't a real person - just a character that Plato made up. Do you know anything about that?
So it’s sort of a thing. Socrates is a real guy but Plato also used the character or voice of Socrates to advance some of his own ideas using Socrates’ name for credibility - probably.
I also thought the same thing.
The thing is there's a chance he wasn't. Or he was several people at the same time. Same with Plato. There are some things in the historical record that simply aren't true but historians have to act like it is just because to doubt it would throw the whole historical record into chaos. Once you pull one thread the whole thing unravels.
There's a change Hercules was a real person and there's a chance Zeno of Citium wasn't. Hercules' 12 trials were possibly based on true stories of a warrior that got embellished later. And they say Zeno died from holding his own breath, but the thing is... you can't die from holding your own breath. It's physically impossible.
Exactly. It’s a hodgepodge of probability that aren’t out of the realm of possibility.
That's very interesting! I can't imagine anyone admitting that Socrates wasn't a real person now - that would just tumble Western Civilization into chaos since his thought is foundational! I understand that we can't really know from this vantage point and does it really matter anyway? I just think it is interesting. Thanks for the information!
Love it - funny and interesting.
Thank you.
I love him, but he reminds me of a kid who keeps asking "Why?" But yes, I love kids too for that reason. They make you think because sometimes we don't want to think. But we have to anyway. Otherwise, we're just running on emotions and reactions. Anyhoo, Socrates is cool!
Yes m, he is very much the kid asking why. He makes you think beyond your comfort zone. Yeah, he’s my kind of guy.
"It didn’t take long for Athens to tire of Socrates strolling around the marketplace, questioning everybody’s life choices. Eventually, they put him on trial for corrupting the youth, which is a pretty great charge! “Corrupting the youth.” I mean, come on! Socrates wasn’t out here with a gang of rebellious teenagers, spray-painting temples."
This is factually incorrect.
The charge of corruption of the youth had, largely, to do with the fact that Socrates students overthrew the democratic government and purged 5% of the population in the reign of the Thirty Tyrants. As a comparison point Stalin is placed at purging 2%-5%. Socrates' personal involvement was unclear but it is known that he simultaneously was not kicked out of the city nor left out of fear but he also did not take any active administrative role. However the Tyrants were comfortable enough with his presence and authority that they asked him to personally arrest and drag up one of the leading nobles, Leon of Salamis, to his execution and property confiscation. Socrates chose not to do it but also did not protest, according to Plato.
There are two other instances where Socrate's students and friends were involved in trying to overthrow governments. This article sums up the situation well with the limited information we have.
https://www.famous-trials.com/socrates/833-home
In regards to "spray-painting temples", he actually was attached to temple vandalizers. It's funny how on the nose the account is. Here is an excerpt about Socrate's friend vandalizing religious pillars.
"The prime movers in both of the anti-democratic movements were former pupils of Socrates, Alcibiades and Critias. Athenians undoubtedly considered the teachings of Socrates--especially his expressions of disdain for the established constitution--partially responsible for the resulting death and suffering. Alcibiades, perhaps Socrates' favorite Athenian politician, masterminded the first overthrow. (Alcibiades had other strikes against him: four years earlier, Alcibiades had fled to Sparta to avoid facing trial for mutilating religious pillars--statues of Hermes--and, while in Sparta, had proposed to that state's leaders that he help them defeat Athens.)"
The story of Socrate's trial cannot be understood without the context of the Thirty Tyrants. That was really the central issue of the whole thing:
"If I. F. Stone is right, the most damaging accusation against Socrates concerned his association with Critias, the cruel leader of the Thirty Tyrants. Socrates, in Plato's account, points to his refusal to comply with the Tyrants' order that he bring in Leon of Salamis for summary execution. He argues this act of disobedience--which might have led to his own execution, had not the Tyrants fallen from power--demonstrates his service as a good citizen of Athens. Stone notes, however, that a good citizen might have done more than simply go home to bed--he might have warned Leon of Salamis. In Stone's critical view, the central fact remained that in the city's darkest hour, Socrates "never shed a tear for Athens.""
This is something that should not be easy to miss in any summary of Socrate's trial.
Wow. You really schooled me in 4th century Greek stuff. You’re one knowledgeable person. I would have never confused this essay with serious scholarship. But you, Dave, on a Friday night in September, did it. Congratulations. Well done. I’m firmly put in place. Now go and enjoy your weekend. And please, lighten up.
I accept your concession and admission of poor scholarship. Thank you.
Now go. Scurry away. Find someone else to nitpick.
Not very Socrates of you. Have a fun weekend.
It wasn’t scholarship. I never said it was. That’s the point.
I know you're going deep here Richard, but surprisingly, I smelled mint when I read mint. Damn, my brain is f*cked.
Thank you. Now I'm thinking about mint juleps.
Socratic method, works better in a classroom than at a party……
It's portable. Take it on the road, in the car, wherever you need it!
Ultimately, “justice” is a human invention. Life’s really about truthfulness. Nature is the role model for truthfulness.
Thanks for sharing Bernhardt. Yes we need truthfulness now more than ever.
If truth and justice conflict, which should prevail? This is a question which divides those I know, across the political and intellectual spectrum, right down the middle.
Yes, Leighton, that is the question. Next time, in a less harried format (or, who knows, maybe not), I'll discuss John Rawls.
Definitely truth. But: humans don't know the truth, only perspectives. Conflicts between people are about conflicting perspectives:
"What we hear is an opinion, not a fact. What we see is a perspective, not the truth." (Marcus Aurelius)
Truth is found through the universal order, which is aptly called 'cosmos' (bc kosmos is the Greek word for order)
Your only chance to get close to the truth is to free yourself from your programs. Only then will you have access to the cosmos and thus see the truth. I analyze this in my article "Intuition is Much More Than Just a Sixth Sense" - https://open.substack.com/pub/bernhardexplores/p/intuition-is-much-more-than-just?r=3oqs68&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
I have to subscribe based on this essay alone.
Thank you, Amelia, and welcome to the discourse. Please feel free to look around!
LOL what a wonderful read!
Thank you, Preston. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
This made me smile. I like your humour (English spelling... or is it from French influence?) Anyway, the toddler bit really got to me... of course... the never-ending "why?" Answer the toddler and their response will be "why?" forever! Poor old Soc... he had a difficult end, made to drink Hemlock. I decided to use a plant identifier app on my herb garden, (loads of different mints and chamomile, the usual tansy, lady's mantle, etc:) and was horrified to find there was one tiny plant in there that my phone named as Hemlock! Jiminy Cricket! Everyone should have a plant identifier.
This was very enjoyable to read.
Excellent! Plato going around taking notes like a nerd. Lol. He could have walked out of the cell apparently. But he didn't.
Thank you Karina.
I was wondering if the sarcasm was sincere or not. Nice read.
Socrates is by far my favourite philosopher, because his views were not only simple, they were effective. I tended to use the Socratic Method far before I ever learned what it was, and when I did I was like "Holy shit! Why didn't anyone tell me about this?"
The thing that gets me the most is how useful it is. It's like a key that opens almost any lock, and almost *no one* uses it. Very few can even tell when you're doing it. Even people claiming to be philosophers never see it coming. It's literally why I have ignorant in my screen name and no one seems capable of figuring that out.
I’m glad you liked it. I appreciate your thoughtful response and reflection.
Extremely well-written, Richard.
Thank you, Mike.
Yes! One does not want to make the Socratic mistake. We have a plant identifier as well. It’s very handy for gardening. I’m glad you enjoyed the Socrates.